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CRITICAL issue : the risk/reward balance of minerals and moonstuff

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procurement specialist	Posted - 2008.06.16 16:14:00 - [1] Edited by: procurement specialist on 16/06/2008 16:14:47 doesn't that simply mean they are valuable enough to afford those defenses? I personally think the pockets being mined out or a pos array that prevents your moon from being scanned would be awesome additions. Moving targets promote more pvp. Quote: * for minerals, a multitude of sub-solutions, ranging from a revamp of drone alloy drops (no more abundance of highends and lack of lowends), or rethinking ore make-up (in terms of refining yields) or even a total revamp of the mining system (all ore available everywhere, just with different concentrations - i.e. different extraction rates for various ores, depending on system security). agree with this so much. It isn't that omber should be worth more than veld by virtue of it being low sec. it is that low sec being less developed should have richer roids (of every kind) left in it.
procurement specialist	Posted - 2008.06.17 16:48:00 - [2] the point is to move people from high sec to low sec to 0.0 at some point to make more isk. no matter what the price of the minerals are if veldspar in .4 space yields twice the trit of veldspar from 1.0 space then you make more isk/hour in low sec. There are already 3 types of every ore in game. adjust the modifiers and seperate them across bands. I would prefer up to 6 types to cover all the sec bands but 3 types could be workable. It doesn't require tons and tons of blueprint manipulation or additional items. insurance should also be based on frequency of pay out if we are talking real life here. I could do without insurance myself but if it stays then if you lose a ship every 3 hours you should pay more or get less for your insurance than i do if i lose a ship every 6 weeks at most.
procurement specialist	Posted - 2008.06.17 17:22:00 - [3] i actually really like the mineral voucher proposal. it then really is completely player priced without the horrors of shifting markets and regional price fixing by alliances.
procurement specialist	Posted - 2008.06.18 21:08:00 - [4] Quote: It isn't that omber should be worth more than veld by virtue of it being low sec. it is that low sec being less developed should have richer roids (of every kind) left in it. low sec has much greater risks than high sec. Even if it is only the time it takes to fit out another suicide gank ship the ganker has still used more resources than the low sec guy simply blowing you up. Rats in low sec get harder requiring stiffer tanks. rats in null sec can get very extreme requiring very expensive tanks. the same argument about risk versus rewards being broken could be used to justify bs rats in 1.0. I don't want price caps. simply that 0.0 by virtue of being 0.0 should have better roids. Individual min prices should not matter in this. The ore itself should be superior. The entire reason arkonor is 0.0 only is because it was supposedly already mined out buy the empires in empire space. The same would hold true for teh best veld roids.
procurement specialist	Posted - 2008.06.19 13:51:00 - [5] high ends from 0.0 mining would still be exported but trit from mining would be more than trit from ratting in 0.0 which is the problem i ahve atm. if you took current prices at a rough guess i am 7m/hour in veld or around 30-40m in 0.0 on ark. if you made a 4x veld roid for 0.0 for 28m/hour and a 10% roid in empire for arkonor at 3m/hour we would still mine ark in 0.0 and veld in empire but at least would be getting more trit from mining than ratting again.
procurement specialist	Posted - 2008.06.19 15:57:00 - [6] by that same logic you could just make all the ores refine to 10x the current amount to fix the ratio. across the board this would simply make the price of all the minerals fall but would eliminate or at least reduce the weird problems that mission loot and drone mins cause. btw that is not my preferred method to try and fix this. just saying it would greatly reduce the effect of the drone regions and mission loot as mineral sources as opposed to mining.
procurement specialist	Posted - 2008.06.19 16:53:00 - [7] Edited by: procurement specialist on 19/06/2008 16:54:04 the benefit of having higher quality roids in lowsec and null sec of the same minerals is that it still freely allows the market to control teh price of minerals. It simply means that the same roid will likely be mined in low sec and null sec as in high sec (this is where the actual % balances come in and sec status bands.) if in 1 region the .5 systems have a higher grade of omber that in most other regions requires .4 status to obtain then more people in region a will mine omber than in region b. the same with other ores along the border zones of sec status. No matter what though mining in low sec will be better once you cross a band to a better version of the high sec ore. This allows the market free room which imho is working as it should. edit. also exploration should always be better than normal belts simply due to the extra time and cost of probes involved. Maybe these better roids have simply been missed this entire time and you scanned them down and profited.
procurement specialist	Posted - 2008.06.19 19:35:00 - [8] you will still be mining roid hot spots though.
procurement specialist	Posted - 2008.06.23 20:58:00 - [9] brain should low sec offer higher rewards for miners? Ratters find better rats spawns, pos can be anchored and moons mined. piracy is much easier on gates and in belts. People who live in low sec often pay more for items to avoid travel to hubs through choke points. It seems everyone else should make more isk with higher risk than miners in low sec according. That is what is confusing me on your arguments.
procurement specialist	Posted - 2008.06.24 22:57:00 - [10] what is the problem with simply makes higher yeild roids spawn in low sec and 00 than high sec. you have free range still on what to mine ore wise. it simply means that you are virtually guaranteed more minerals in low sec than in high sec mining the almost same asteroid. minerals still fluctuate as intended and people will still mine the ore that gives the most isk / hour in their security belt. It would also help offset the fact that mining for lowends in 0.0 takes longer than ratting up low ends. Assuming everyone agrees that mining should actually be the best source of minerals over ratting.
procurement specialist	Posted - 2008.06.25 12:32:00 - [11] in a hulk i can outmine high ends on ark and bis compared to a friend running drone complexes. In a group i get an even bigger bonus. I can live with that. For whatever reason drone bounty is paid for in mins. I would say they need more low ends to allow for production in deep 0.0 easier instead of the overabundance of high ends though. What bugs the hell out of me is that I can with nearly maxed skills (for solo i only need exhumers V and DI V instead of at 4) and cannot get straight trit mined from huge 0.0 veld roids with t2 veld crystals faster than my comparatively crappy cruise missiles skills can get me trit from rat loot. And believe me I have very crappy missile skills. I don't want to trash rat loot drops because for most of the game space (non-deep 0.0) mining is faster than rat loot from cruisers and frigates. Beleive me I tell everyone in corp who wants to get me veld when I complain about trit shortages to rat and sell me the loot instead of veld mining. Drone mins are specially designed to be the bounty reward in refinables. Trash loot from standard mobs giving me more of any mineral than mining focused on that mineral while also giving bounties just miffs me. my .02 isk
procurement specialist	Posted - 2008.06.25 16:55:00 - [12] Edited by: procurement specialist on 25/06/2008 16:56:12 Originally by: Brainless Bimbo You agree that I can make more mining in low sec, what we disagree on is how greedy we are/should be, you want a substantial reward difference, i don't, i just want it greater, just in proportion to NPC risk, which it is. you can make more mining in low sec solely due to exploration belts which exist outside normal mining parameters and require special non-mining skills and equipment to find. Kernite which is the only roid i am aware of which is in .2 or less (i could be wrong here feel free to check me) beats veldspar by less than 10% for total volume. Add the fact that you will get full cycles of veld while kernite is bigger so part of an ore is normally wasted and you cut the total volume you mine down by an average of about half a roid per source. It is small but i am trying to be exhaustive here. the difference between 1.0 sec mining veldspar and .2 mining kernite is mostly negligible. edit more research. kernite is .4 and less. hedgbrigite is the .2 and less ore. from eve geek if this copies right With a cargo capacity of 900,000 m¦ your ship can carry: Veldspar9,000,000 units (27027 batches)69,837,768.00 ISK Scordite6,000,000 units (18018 batches)68,405,405.76 ISK Pyroxeres3,000,000 units (9009 batches)55,503,559.22 ISK Plagioclase2,571,428 units (7722 batches)67,025,467.26 ISK Omber1,500,000 units (3000 batches)53,657,805.00 ISK Kernite750,000 units (1875 batches)74,960,681.82 ISK Jaspet450,000 units (900 batches)47,447,318.70 ISK Hemorphite300,000 units (600 batches)64,237,996.80 ISK Hedbergite300,000 units (600 batches)81,482,822.40 ISK Gneiss180,000 units (450 batches)172,330,901.46 ISK Dark Ochre112,500 units (281 batches)160,023,402.98 ISK Spodumain56,250 units (225 batches)107,118,931.50 ISK Crokite56,250 units (225 batches)320,551,709.48 ISK Bistot56,250 units (281 batches)363,533,832.98 ISK Arkonor56,250 units (281 batches)415,034,105.76 ISK Mercoxit22,500 units (90 batches)409,735,511.10 ISK hedbergite and kernite beat veld. hedbergite by approx 1/7th but is not found in all all regions and only found in .2 space or less. amarr and gallente get hemorphite which is less than veldspar. not saying you can't move but there is clearly a very small difference here. exploration belting and jumping to 0.0 ore gnesis is about 2x veldspar though.
procurement specialist	Posted - 2008.06.25 16:59:00 - [13] Character limit on previous post for some reason??? CCP has stated repeatedly they want people out of high sec and into low sec and 0.0 more. The region they added is mostly lowsec for factional warfare. now people will not leave high sec where they have more protection for low sec when their is no monetary benefit. This of course implies to mass populations. Some people just get twitchy in empire surrounded by neuts but for most people this is true.
procurement specialist	Posted - 2008.06.26 12:58:00 - [14] i posted a lot of numbers to back myself up to prove that veldspar is better than most anything else until you get to true 0.0 ore. i look to have been ignore to continue the bickering though.
procurement specialist	Posted - 2008.06.26 16:24:00 - [15] bimbo's statement was that trit demand far outstrips supply thus with trit being the shortage mineral the price of trit must rise to attract miners to come mine it for the production train to get going again. no other mineral is used in such vast quantities (please everyone agree with that statement) and tritanium is currently the largest deadlock mineral so prices are having to elevate above originally intended to make it attractive to mine. My issue is that the only way to fix this problem (for those who agree it is a problem as the most abundant mineral in the universe should not normally be the train stopper) is to reduce the quantities required of tritanium, adjust bpos, or increase the supply somehow. This is like having a deadlock on universal hydrogen. it is everywhere. now i dislike this but my specific concern is that mining for a mineral should always be the best source of that mineral. This is why in 0.0 where i mostly live i want better yielding veld so that i can mine trit at a better rate than i can rat it. it makes rp sense and on the reverse side giving empire poorly yielding arkonor and other 0.0 roids allows the economy more freedom. And I didn't want to give a buff to just 0.0. I have mining friends that stick to empire too.
procurement specialist	Posted - 2008.06.26 17:50:00 - [16] Edited by: procurement specialist on 26/06/2008 17:51:53 raven Tritanium 7,577,632 Pyerite 1,894,802 Mexallon 474,675 Isogen 118,519 Nocxium 29,595 Zydrine 7,060 Megacyte 2,254 Ogre I Tritanium 232 Pyerite 4,468 Nocxium 2 Megacyte 4 800mm plates Tritanium 10,996 Pyerite 10,435 Mexallon 7,524 Isogen 208 Nocxium 5 Megacyte 3 Berserker Tritanium 6,408 Pyerite 806 Isogen 66 Nocxium 8 Zydrine 4 drone componuds Compounds (drones) Units Tritanium Pyerite Mexallon Isogen Nocxium Zydrine Megacyte Morphite Condensed Alloy 188441100000 Crystal Compound 1003920000 Precious Alloy 1070180000 Sheen Compound 1124440231000 Gleaming Alloy 12990005000 Lucent Compound 101742115000 Dark Compound 10002310000 Motley Compound 10002813000 Lustering Alloy 100883235200 Glossy Compound 100004060 Plush Compound 1012002001800 Opulent Compound 100000002 looking you can see that drones provide mins much more in favor of high ends. drone mins being unable to supply tritanium requires trit to be imported. I would propose drone mins get a large amount of the low ends added to the high end compounds. you wouldn't even need to lower the high end amounts. drone regio trit logistics makes pos logistics look easy. It is terrible trying to get enough trit for anything out there. clearly normal drones are composed of similar proportions of mineral to battleships. edit spacing is terrible sorry. it looks right to me.
procurement specialist	Posted - 2008.06.26 19:16:00 - [17] why not? every other 0.0 region can be t1 sufficient until you start trying to produce cap swarms. cap swarm prodruction simply takes more than 1 region of resources so no region can be sufficient by itself for that.
procurement specialist	Posted - 2008.06.26 21:05:00 - [18] yes l4 missions in .8 space are a bit absurd. wth is concord doing to let multiple criminal bs in? players can't get in. ways to alter production the actual ways to alter production belong in a separate thread. use that one or start a new one but the idea that something can be changed to fix it isn't bad. I still say that adding low ends to drone mis to produce more sustainable drone regions and introducing higher yield low end roids in low sec and null sec would allow the market to fix everything else itself. The drones and rat loot artifically devalue mining but I would not want another you get more ore fix. The suggestions like the 1/10th ore size where nothing can help mining don't really fix that disparity of trit needed vs minable amounts compared to zydrine/megacyte needed vs mining amounts. sorry i think i rambled. long day and getting tired.
procurement specialist	Posted - 2008.06.27 03:43:00 - [19] but i like mining so i want it fixed anyway lol. changing all the bps and fixing mining like this versus just fixing mining was my perspective. that is why i recommended my idea so strongly instead.
procurement specialist	Posted - 2008.06.27 16:20:00 - [20] to be fair bimbo did start out saying that calling it a critical issue was misleading. Also bimbo did sound for several pages like she was against the idea in total and not just how important an issue it was. Does the thumbs up mean we support this being looked into or that we support all of Akita T's proposals. They need a second thumbs up option i guess.
procurement specialist	Posted - 2008.06.27 18:30:00 - [21] Originally by: procurement specialist why not? every other 0.0 region can be t1 sufficient isn't the purpose to carve our own empires. Why would being self sufficient be bad. It seems like the point of it all. Yes trade has to happen for t2 components and datacores for t2 stuff and pos npc fuels but for everything else we should be able to provide for ourselves. I am the melt it down guy and my wife is the build it back up girl for 70-80% of our in corp production when the troops are home.
procurement specialist	Posted - 2008.06.28 19:15:00 - [22] Originally by: Akita T Well, the devs wanted regions to be only partially (or, rather said, sub-optimally) self-sufficient, in order to encourage trade of various items and/or materials between them. But when they turned around and nerfed mineral compression and carrier hauling, the whole idea became kind of questionable... Quote: Yes trade has to happen for t2 components and datacores for t2 stuff and pos npc fuels yes i am quoting myself :p. This is where i would limit it myself. I think minerals being available locally for basic t1 manufacturing should be in every region. It is why i want drone mins revamped to allow for more resonable quantities. Drone region logisitcs are terrible in large part because of drone minerals favoring high ends so heavily. I know i am repeating myself. sorry.
procurement specialist	Posted - 2008.07.02 02:13:00 - [23] Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah I agree with the content of this thread. Some tweaks should be made to the availability of moon materials, and the ore in lowsec in particular needs to be more profitable, as it currently is better to mine veldspar in hi-sec than to venture in lowsec and grab roids there. Making all ore available everywhere but in different concentrations is a solution that I haven't heard before that could use some looking into. this made me happy. i don't know who first proposed it in the mining mkii thread a long time ago but i can't take credit for thinking of it.
procurement specialist	Posted - 2008.07.10 00:26:00 - [24] Originally by: Internet Knight Advanced Scrapmetal Processing would be at a disadvantage here; if you further increase its yield, you end up to a point where it's a useless skill (implants allow 100% refine everywhere with (Basic) Scrapmetal Processing 5, even at outposts). technically it is 99.39% and takes a cyber V implant and rank 4 or 5 skill at level V to hit it for the best ores. just saying technically.
procurement specialist	Posted - 2008.07.16 16:20:00 - [25] Originally by: Akita T On second thought, why even bother... just put them on the market sold by NPCs... you already have a pretty hefty drain on player resources by supplying the datacores, if T2 production picks up the pace, there will be an even higher demand for them... having players spend RPs to get these BPO/BPCs would be kind of counter-productive. i could see special storyline missions from doing 16 R&D agent missions. Give more people a reason to run missions for the R&D agents.
procurement specialist	Posted - 2008.07.16 16:34:00 - [26] Edited by: procurement specialist on 16/07/2008 16:35:18 Originally by: Batolemaeus Edited by: Batolemaeus on 16/07/2008 12:36:39 I wouldn't have a problem with it, as long as it can't enter highsec and gets bonuses for low end ores. All those HUGE Veldroids...oh, those HUGE, MOIST, YUMMY, TASTY VELDROIDS As long as we don't have to use our motherships for it from another thread about capital mining ships. Thinking about it though why not some ships that can't enter high sec because (insert rp reason here) that has large bonuses to the low end roids. Maybe a script for normal mining lasers or a second module that can be set to low-sec or 0.0 only (similar to how cyno fields are blocked in high sec and warp bubbles aren't allowed in low sec). Have it only give bonuses to ore found above .5 or above 0.0 so that mining the big veld roids becomes practical in 0.0. It was just a thought I had reading the quote above. Allows new ship classes to accomplish a lot without having to redo so much for mining.

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